Full Transcript
0:00:00 – Speaker 1
So welcome to the Fully Expressed podcast with Karenna. I’m so excited for today because I’m bringing one of the most vibrant, grounded women to the show. She is a fairy godmother for women, breaking patterns of performing perfectionism and people pleasing in their bedrooms, businesses and lives. I’d like to introduce you to Hannah Deindorfer. I’m so excited that you’re here.
0:00:26 – Speaker 2
Me too. I’m so excited that we’re getting to have this conversation.
0:00:31 – Speaker 1
Yeah, thank you so much For everyone listening. I just want to give you a little background of like when I met Hannah. Like when I first met you I’m not gonna lie like you can just tell that you were like powerful in the room, but then also like here and I met Hannah in the Phoenix path when we did our somatic certification. What was it like a year ago now, maybe? No, about a year yeah, it’s crazy how time flies by. That was like a six to seven-ish because we had a month break like program and it just flew by.
But like truly getting to know you in that program, I was like every time you spoke, I was like I resonate with this girl so much.
I was like so grateful that you were sharing and like so expressive about your experience because it also helped me like just connect with you in that way and be like I feel that like that hits too, like I resonate with that.
So that was my experience. And then just following you online like you just also come off so expressive. So you I think you’re a great representation, at least for me on this side of the screen and from getting to know you, like who you are in your real life is who you show up online and I value that so much because it’s just really great example of someone truly honoring and being in their essence, like in their fullest expression through and through, and I mean that is a journey in itself and I’d love to hear about that, obviously on today’s episode. But you can just see that you embody that. I just can’t wait to continue to witness you like evolve and express yourself into, like where you’re going. But I just got to say like kudos to you because, like, at least for someone that’s experiencing you, that’s what it feels like.
0:02:10 – Speaker 2
Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate that because I feel true to who I am online in person, like nothing that I share is, can’t share things that are inauthentic to me. It just in my body. I can’t feel it. So to hear that it resonates on the other side, the way that it feel to me, is really important. It feels really good.
0:02:32 – Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I don’t know if it was like this for you, but, like when I first started showing up online, I did try to show up like how it was, like I wanted to show up, like how other people were showing up. In a way, I was like, well, it looks like it’s working for them, like maybe I should try this thing for them. It always felt so icky, it always felt so stretchy, it always felt like why is this being forceful? And then, you know, once it kind of shifted and I would love to hear your experience like once it shifted, it was like oh, this is just me. You know, it was like almost exhausting to try and show up another way, like and show up in ways that I thought people would accept, love, want, you know, resonate with, connect with whatever, like putting myself in, like what do they want? Versus, like who am I? Was it like that for you at all?
0:03:16 – Speaker 2
I think in the beginning because I started from this place, I just want to share information, I want to share these spiritual things that I’m learning about At the beginning it felt very authentic. I was like here’s my lifting videos and here is the picture of what I ate today and here’s like this book that I’m reading, and it felt very real and authentic. And then I definitely took a turn into performing, but for me, that actually always kind of felt authentic to me too, like, I think, because I’ve spent so much time in my life in a performative state that it was like oh yeah, I know how to do this, I know how to mold myself, to make myself likable. It didn’t feel like in the moment that it was exhausting or draining, but over time it built up, like I didn’t realize it in the moment that I was creating a persona that didn’t resonate with me, but eventually it got to a place where it felt like what I was talking about I didn’t care about it.
0:04:18 – Speaker 1
What did like performing feel to you? Like I’m so curious, like if even before you were aware of it, like what was like the day to day, like if you were to like step into like that chameleon or like I can show up, I can do this, like what did that actually feel to you in like the moment?
0:04:33 – Speaker 2
Well, it actually reminds me of so. I used to perform piano and I also used to play a lot of sports, and so it felt similarly, in that I’m like, okay, I got to turn it on, I got to step on the stage, I got to shift into the other version of myself that I know how to do this and pretend to have it all together. Like in that phase of performing on a stage, playing an instrument or performing on a court, there is like a different gear that starts to happen and it’s like all of the self-doubt and the insecurity. It just it’s put all in the background because I can’t let my weakness show.
0:05:19 – Speaker 1
Like, as you’re talking and I know if you won’t be able to see this on video, but I can just see you like, want to like step into this like character, or this arming, or like this, like this piece of clothing that you’re putting on, like this is what it is right Like. I’m showing up as this.
0:05:32 – Speaker 2
It is an armor. Right, it is like I’m preparing for battle. There’s an armoring that happens. The mask, it’s a cloak, it’s something that is protective so that I don’t have to show really a lot of vulnerability. And the teaching persona that I had online for a long time with another level is that cloaking. I could be smart, I could be a teacher, and that was another way to hide really how I felt or what was true vulnerability for me. I would show bits and pieces of my story and I’d be like, oh, that’s vulnerable, but it wasn’t like in a moment vulnerability of like, oh, I’m dealing with this thing, or this is going on for me, or this is what I really think right now, or feel there was this like teacher persona. That was another kind of armoring for myself.
0:06:18 – Speaker 1
Wow, I can definitely relate to that a little bit. I’m curious what was the process like? Just like going from like noticing that you were doing this, right, at one point you became aware that you were turning on this performer persona, right, there’s like armor, that you were stepping in and like you were kind of leaving parts of you behind, the vulnerability or the insecurities or whatever else was behind One, how did you recognize that that was happening? And two, what was the process of like the undoing or like the shedding of the layers to work through them and integrate it back into your life? You know what I mean Like work through and do and come back, yeah, it?
0:06:55 – Speaker 2
was it actually like what happened externally? I didn’t really realize, I think, the extent to which I was putting on a persona externally, but when I started discovering my sexuality and really connecting to my emotions and my body, how I was showing up just changed as a result of that. It was like because I started to really be in tune with my emotions and what my body wanted and what it felt, and I tore down so much of my life as a result of discovering that I wasn’t happy and what I had created. It just started flowing on to my online space more easily because I realized what I was doing behind. This wasn’t like I’m like, oh, I’m doing this persona teacher thing online. Let me change that. It was like, oh, wow, I’m like not happy in my life, let me end my relationship. Let me discover my sexuality, let me reconnect to my body, let me do a bunch more therapy, and that changed how I showed up online just a byproduct, really, not as an intention.
0:08:06 – Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean it seems like it’s a byproduct, obviously, because it’s sometimes here and like it became more of your essence, your being as you did. I’d love for you to share a little bit more about what it was or what opened the doors for you like want to explore your sexuality or like what did that even look like? The opportunity come to you where you always like interested in like exploring your sexuality? Was it like someone was like, hey, I have this thing. Do you want to join? Like I’d love to hear what the door was for you. All right, my love, I’m jumping in here real quick to tell you about the fully expressed community, because the women that are in this group are phenomenal and if you’re listening to this and you’re a lady, a female, or know someone that is female or lady that is on this path of growth and wanting to continue to evolve as a human being and find their fullest authentic expression in their relationships, in their life and their business and relationships, surrounded by a community of women that are dedicated to doing the work themselves, I want you in this community, I want to invite you into this community. I really think that being surrounded by other women that are on the same path that just get you, that just totally understand where you’re coming from or where you’re going or where you want to go and wherever that path is such a safe space for you to be held in. That and encouraged in. That is so important for our healing. If you find yourself feeling an ounce or a sprinkle of anxiety or overwhelmed or just uneasiness with the thought of being in a great container, about talking about very vulnerable things, I just want to encourage you and remind you that I totally understand, I totally get it. It can be edgy, it can be scary to open yourself in that way, but in doing so, you end up creating so much more healing. I’ve had some of the biggest breakthroughs being in containers that can hold me and being surrounded by other women that are also on this path, because I feel like I’m seen and understood, and so I truly want to invite you into giving it a chance.
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0:11:43 – Speaker 2
So I had a lot of sexual trauma. My first sexual experience was non consensual. My first intimate relationship was a three year very abusive situation. And then I, through college, was very dissociated from my body and so I use that for validation and get attention and approval, and so I had never really had sex in a way that was for me, and so I had been in a about a three year relationship. At the turn, at my turning point, of bisexuality.
In that relationship my partner God bless them with, like I want you to be more sexy, like I want you to feel feminine, like I want that for you, I want you to feel more powerful, like I want you to feel into that part of you. And I was so defensive about it. Yeah, I got really upset about it. I ignored it, I didn’t want to talk about it. I think I bought a couple skirts, one point and then we took a class together through the landmark school of classes they have these seminars and we did the sex management seminar together and I started revealing oh wow, I have a lot of stories, but I have a lot of ways that I’m an authentic and sex and started to open it up that way. And then he suggested that we do this Tantra and BDSM course together and we bought the program and then we broke up because we were like so it was, the sex was really not getting better. We were just in a really top place in our relationship and right and ended the relationship, but that interest was there.
I also had made a couple friends here and often that were very sex positive and they had opened up some conversations for me.
And so after I left that relationship I was like this is a huge part of me that I just haven’t explored. And at the same time I met a DOM, a dominant person, and he and I started a sexual relationship that was very King heavy. He taught me a lot about kink and about BDSM and all of the protocol around it, with discussions leading up to it and after care and safe words and all of these things that made me feel so free for the first time in sex and like that my voice mattered and that my desires mattered and that with him I could say the craziest thing, like I say I want to have sex in the middle of the park and I want a million people to watch, and he would be like great, like that’s amazing, like how can we make that happen? But like that’s like an extreme example, but like anything I would say he would be so encouraging and that really kicked off my deepening of my relationship to my sexuality and the encouraging piece that you’re talking to.
0:14:38 – Speaker 1
I’ve definitely experienced that in my relationship and for me it was like so healing was it? And it was just something that I was like wait, you’re okay with this? What Like? Really Like, you want the messiest parts of me, what you want more of that? That’s so cool. And it was almost like inviting, in a sense of how do I say like, oh, I can give myself permission to love these parts too? Like, if he loves these parts of me too, you know, like, oh, I can now, like I am accepting of this, in a way, like it was a blessing that they were so encouraging in that moment.
Yeah you use so many words like BDSM, b-ink and Contra and I would love for you to share like yeah or those words, and what does that mean?
0:15:20 – Speaker 2
For sure, yeah, yeah, okay, a little vocab lesson here.
0:15:25 – Speaker 1
I mean, it’s hard to not assume what they are, but I’d love to hear your perspective.
0:15:30 – Speaker 2
Totally, because people who are listening may have their own preconceived notions about what kink is. I know, when I started like what I thought was kink was you know the movie Pulp Fiction. No, there’s this scene in this movie where there’s this like dungeon place and there’s like this male gimp and he’s he’s like a. He’s wearing a little gimp mask and his whole body’s covered in leather and he’s like the sex slave. That’s what I thought the kink was. I thought it was the most extreme thing where, like, you’re covered in leather and you’re being beat up and you’re tied up and chained up and it’s like this crazy extreme thing.
0:16:07 – Speaker 1
I agree, that’s exactly what I had in Mission 2. Like when we’re like it’s almost like scary, like there’s like this fear, like this, like scary image of it, of like being like threatening or being too dark or like whatever at the beginning. So I’d love for you to like feel that for sure, which it totally can be Like that is.
0:16:26 – Speaker 2
That is kink. That is one expression of what kink can be. It can be pain, it can be inflicting pain, it can be receiving pain, it can be being covered in leather and being a step stool. It can be all of those things. But my favorite definition of kink is one from Dossi Egan, who wrote a couple books about a guide to submission and a guide to dominance. She called kink gorme sex, which I love.
0:16:54 – Speaker 1
That sounds so yummy. I want gorme sex. I want it. I want a dive into the plate of sex. That sounds like that Exactly it’s more inviting.
0:17:06 – Speaker 2
It’s a more inviting definition and to expand on that a little more, I think kink. To me it represents anything that someone feels is a little taboo, a little naughty. Vanilla sex is anything that feels like it’s socially acceptable. Sex like the kind of sex that you see in movie. Most movies and TV shows very traditional kind of sex, hetero, male, female penetration, stuff like that. And then kink is anything that feels like it’s outside of that. It’s a little bit outside of the norm and taboo is different for everyone. So for some people taboo is having sex with the lights on. For some people taboo is being restrained and being pleasure at the same time, and then for some people it’s being covered in leather and being a sex slave. Like there’s such a range and what you deem as taboo is super personal. It’s anything that makes your little heart go oh, that’s maybe the kind of bad like. Maybe I shouldn’t be doing this.
0:18:11 – Speaker 1
This is a little spicy, like a little spicy, yeah, and it almost like you, yeah, like stretches your edges a little bit. You’re like, oh, I haven’t done that before, but like I kind of like it. It’s like uncomfortable, but I kind of like it at the same time. That is kink, that is for sure, taboo.
I love that you said that, because it really represents almost a spectrum and it gives permission to be for anyone, however they are in expression and themselves sexually, whatever feels good for them. They get to be anywhere on that spectrum and that’s okay, right. There’s no, totally it’s quote unquote wrong for you to step in and want this X, y, z. It’s like, at the end of the day, if it’s on that spectrum for you or if it’s in that level of expression or in that edginess, that feels like a little stretchy but you kind of like it and you like think about it and you like want to step into it, like that’s here too and that’s available to you too, would you? Is that agree? Would you agree?
0:18:59 – Speaker 2
100%, yeah, like I love making kink feel more accessible because it’s also a space where your shadows can come out and play. It’s a really beautiful way I’ve found to do shadow work, to be able to bring forth parts of you that are shrouded in shame or repression or that you think aren’t good enough or are bad, and in kink all of that is celebrated. It’s in the sexual space where you can be anything that you want to be. You can play any role. If you’re very submissive and quiet and shy in your everyday life, you can step into this dominant energy in a place based in a kink space. If you feel the opposite, if you’re very dominant and controlling and you know you’re very responsible in your everyday life, you can take on that opposite side. You can be submissive, you can be owned, you can be gentle.
You can be shy in a kink space and it’s all on the table.
0:20:00 – Speaker 1
It’s all welcomed Something I’m so curious to hear your opinion on because, as you were talking about, just like dominant, submissive, like I think the traditional thing for someone to hear about is like the male or more masculine energy in the room is going to be more dominant or are, on the other end, someone more feminine, more submissive, more vulnerable, more softness like that, I mean, can you describe? Is it possible? I’m just gonna throw out an example Like is it possible for someone to bounce back and forth Like is it like you can step into a more dom space if you are someone that more is more submissive, or you don’t, if you are a male that’s usually dom and off on the outside like you can step into a more submissive role? Is that?
0:20:34 – Speaker 2
100%.
0:20:35 – Speaker 1
Yeah, okay cool, I think people just automatically think like, oh, only doms are, like only males are doms, and like they are only going to be the one that are going to be the powerful one in the room and that’s where we’re going to be, and all women have to be submissive and like anything that men want, and I think just wanting to break that a little bit, because that’s not fair to say, you know totally no, actually, when I first started my kink journey I was very submissive.
0:20:59 – Speaker 2
I played into that space a lot where I was letting go of control. I was letting my partner take the lead. I like the leader follower terminology too, for it like a dominant is leader and the submissive is the follower. The further along I’ve gotten in my journey, the more I’ve loved being in a dominant position, because it lights up again the part of me that is so different than even what I express in my everyday life, like I’m not that bossy in my everyday life, like I’m a coach, I’m a leader, but like it’s a very different than being telling my partner to get on his knees. Yeah, totally different.
0:21:38 – Speaker 1
For sure, and you and I had talked a little bit about, like that people pleasing tendencies, yeah, that I think you’ve also had to work through other people. Have I worked through that show up at all? Like, while you’ve been like stepping into this, like more of like in control role, like how, what was that process like for you? Yeah, because if I, I mean, I’d love to hear your perspective, but for me too, like for the most part, like showing up in the bedroom, I always thought I’d do anything that he wanted, right, like it was always like what can I do to make him happy? I want to make sure that they’re taken care of, like all those things, and I never, ever thought about putting myself first. But when I hear you step into this, like I want to be more of a controlling one, I want to tell my partner all these things, more of that dom, more energy. For someone that is resonates with being a people, please, around this side of the microphone of this show, like that seems a little edgy for me.
0:22:26 – Speaker 2
Like telling them what I want, you know, like saying sit down, hugely edgy, because you know, I think that generally women who are more, who tend to be more people I think this is, I guess, men too we lean towards caring for others, we lean towards caring for our partners, and in the bedroom that can show up as submissive. It can also show up as a martyr, where you’re not getting your pleasure but you’re always giving and giving and not really receiving anything. Or it can show up as feeling very uncomfortable to ask for what you want and to receive. And so when I started discovering my sexuality and really diving into it, it heals so much of my people pleasing because I learned in the bedroom how to ask specifically for what I wanted, which in that very intimate space, is like a huge challenge, right Like that’s when you’re naked, you’re like totally exposed and vulnerable.
If you can ask for what you want in that space, you can do it anywhere. If you can set boundaries and sex when there’s like that pressure there, you can do it anywhere. And then the next level of that was being dominant in the bedroom space, because then, all of a sudden, all of the decisions were on me. I could decide how I wanted my partner to sit or stand or lay, and how I wanted the whole thing to go and when. I wanted him to please me and orchestrate the whole event to match my desires. And you can definitely do that from the submissive side. But there is a totally new level of confidence that comes from being in that role and deciding, making every choice about how the experience goes, but based on your own desires.
0:24:18 – Speaker 1
Yeah, how does it feel to say that? I’m just so curious, like, as you’re saying that, like, how does that feel for you?
0:24:23 – Speaker 2
Well, I don’t think I’ve ever said that like that, like something that I thought about recently, but the way that I don’t think I’ve ever said it quite like that or it was so, quite that conclusion.
0:24:36 – Speaker 1
It was so beautifully said and like the part that like really stood out to like just being like so raw and open and naked and like asking for what you want, and that like that moment, like I think about that even outside the bedroom, like when you’re working through hard conversations and relationships or you’re just going through a really hard time and you’re like the lowest lows, right, and like inviting someone in to see you like raw and naked in the messiness and then having that okay of like, oh, I can, I can ask also for what I need in this moment. I can ask for what I want in this moment. Whoa, and you know that’s like I just have chills even thinking about that, because that, to me, has been super healing and just the fact that you just tied it all in with the bedroom to I mean, it’s just so beautiful.
0:25:17 – Speaker 2
It’s so amazing, it’s like most powerful word for people pleasers is just that those first prize, the first attempt at saying, oh, can I please have this like would it be okay if maybe I could have a hug right now, Could you please just listen to what I have to say? Or like like those little risks, like like I like to think of it in that way that you are, every time you asked for something or make a request that’s vulnerable, you’re really taking a risk because it could be rejected, it could be taken the wrong way, it could be, you know, yeah, receive poorly or reflect on you in a way like you’re already judging yourself for being mean or being a burden or whatever other stories having needs mean to you. And so when you take that, those first initial risks and those little baby steps that build so much confidence when it’s received, well, you know people actually like when you’re very specific about what you want.
0:26:17 – Speaker 1
Oh, and it creates so much trust and relationship to, I mean, person like I’ve just experienced.
Like, oh, like I’m asking you for what I want and you know what I can want, like I have this perfect example.
It just came to mind, like I was on the phone with a friend.
I was like I can really be here to support you and she’s like no, but I want to take advantage of you. And I was like wow, like I just heard that she doesn’t trust my word because I don’t know how to like trust my capacity, right. So, like, at the end of the day, to reassure her, I was like no, like I promise you, like I’m giving you capacity and I will also say I’m not going to give you that I don’t have the right to give you, that I don’t have the right capacity to be able to support you. And I’ve had to build that muscle. Versus being on the other side of the people pleaser, I can totally tell how, like they’re not trusting of my word because I’m not honoring what I truly want or need, that moment, versus once you step into, like that, like oh, I, I know what I want, know what I need, and people would be like yeah, that’s what she wants. I’m like I’m not going to give you the full body.
0:27:13 – Speaker 2
Yes, there you know absolutely like your yes is not trustworthy unless you’re solid in your know Exactly I want everyone just to hear that because it’s so freakin powerful.
0:27:24 – Speaker 1
And I now I so like. I think once I shifted for like I’m not honoring and working that through myself like now I love it when people say no to me, I’m like, okay, cool, I’m here for that, like there’s really nothing. I would be saying no, like I want you to honor your nose. I’m cool with that because and I know every time you say yes, it’s a full, like it’s a yes, right, you really mean it. Yeah, like you really mean it, like you’re really here.
0:27:47 – Speaker 2
And I think something really funny the other day about like Europeans coming to America and being really confused about what’s actually good here, because Americans are always like, oh, that’s so awesome, it’s so amazing, it’s so perfect, it’s like the best thing ever so good, and they say that about everything. And so there’s no, there’s no discernment there, and it’s similar to if you say yes to everything, you’re like that’s fine, that’s good, all that’s the line. Where’s the boundary? There’s no way to tell if that’s trustworthy.
0:28:19 – Speaker 1
Totally. I totally agree with you, and you mentioned a word discernment. Can you talk a little bit more about what discernment means? Because I think, as you go through this healing journey at least personally for me, like I’ve realized like discernment has really become like the biggest tool that you can get to know what’s for me and what’s not for me, or listening to what is applyable, what is on a pliable at the right time for me. Because when it comes to this healing journey, you could hear all these ways of doing things and I think people get can get overwhelmed with all these ways of doing things, but you do also have to try the things to experience of their things that work for you, but eventually getting to a place where you know when it applies and when it’s a yes and when it’s a no, and being your own person to guide you, and this like healing journey in this life of expression. So I’d love to hear what your perspective is when it comes to discernment.
0:29:07 – Speaker 2
So I see discernment similarly to knowing where your boundaries are and the way the metaphor that I like to use with my clients for this is imagine you just start off in this dark room and you can’t see where the walls are, but all the walls are covered with spikes. So you want to walk carefully and slowly around the room to figure out where the walls are. You and you reach out a hand, hurt a little bit, but you touch it and you’re like, oh, okay, that’s, that’s the wall, that’s where the boundary is, that’s I don’t want to, don’t want to go there anymore. You don’t want to like run full out in any direction, because then you’re gonna end up with a face full of spikes, you’re gonna get really hurt, and so it’s a discernment.
Similar way, like the older you get, the more slowly and carefully you’re walking around the room. You’re not running headfirst in any direction. You’re like, okay, I know there’s, probably at some point I’m gonna touch a wall, like I’m gonna hit the spikes. I’m gonna figure out where my boundary here is. I’m gonna figure out that this, this direction, is a no for me, and maybe in some directions the walls really, really far away and that’s a direction you want to walk for a while, but the yeah, like I said, the older you get, I think, the more you develop that ability to pace yourself in those directions and to know, okay, there’s walls over here and the room becomes more illuminated the more experiences you have.
0:30:32 – Speaker 1
Totally. Do you think boundaries can evolve and change and change 100%?
0:30:39 – Speaker 2
100% Because, like, I think of this similarly to consent, and in my world, in the sex world, consent is 100% revocable at any time. Like you can say, I’m a yes to this in this moment, five minutes passive, you’re in for it. It’s revocable. New boundaries created. That boundary didn’t exist before. Or you know, you start in a relationship and you’re very monogamous and you’re like, oh, I only want to be with this person for the rest of my life. And then you get 10 years into the relationship and you’re like, well, maybe we could go to a sex party.
There’s a different boundary, there’s a boundary shift that happens there, and I think boundaries change with our energy levels or capacity, how much leak we’ve gotten in a specific day. They change with our mood, they change with our life circumstances. They change moment to moment what a boundary is for us, and so we require more work generally to be someone that’s on the lookout for when new boundaries pop up, instead of creating blanket statements Okay, I’m always going to be this or I’m always going to be this. But I think it’s a more creative way to live to always be in communication with where are my boundaries in this? Okay, let me try this and then figure it out.
0:31:54 – Speaker 1
Yeah, it gives you a lot more play, like you can just tell from your energies, like a lot more playful, it’s a lot more flowy, it’s a lot more like well, we can just be with what’s available right now, right here, like it’s not like a forever. And I think it’s such a good reminder for me as I’m listening to you because, too, like I had to navigate what’s it called, like I’d be like, well, I promise I would always show up. You know, when I was younger and I’d make these like really hard statements of like this is how I am, this is who I be, and blah, blah, blah.
And really really having to A undo a lot of that for myself and give myself permission to like, oh, I don’t always have to be showing up or I don’t always have to keep XYZ or whatever it was that I was like keeping myself committed to and allowing my commitment to be more flowy, or like honoring my capacity, like you were talking to, or like my boundaries at this point in this season my life, because I mean, obviously we’re all over the place, but just giving myself that flexibility to be like it’s okay to say yes today and no tomorrow, you know, like there’s I don’t have to say yes all the time, but the same thing every time, and that was just such a fresh of breath air because I felt with like every yes that I committed to.
It was like, oh my God, there’s so much energy that makes me feel like I have to keep up with this commitment or the statement that I made, or this promise, or whatever Either I made in my life or relationships or even business. That’s been a whole nother thing like navigating my own evolution there, but getting a little bit more yeah, I guess just more flexible and adaptable to my state versus being like this is it is all that it can be because then by doing that, I end up putting myself in a box and then a box feels like I’m getting stuck and then a box feels like awful.
0:33:37 – Speaker 2
Yes, totally. I mean I think, like a lot of the women that I work with, fall into the categories of like either high achieving or perfectionist, or people pleaser. And these people have a tendency of this over commitment thing or also being really hard on themselves when they say I’m going to do something, I have to do it 100% or I have to do it all the way, and so there’s so much courage and healing and people like that for being able to change your mind and quit something that’s not working for you anymore or change the nature of a relationship which two people pleaser, that’s like, oh my God, death, death. And this is, I feel it.
Yeah, because it’s like, oh fuck, I’ve spent so much time building this relationship where all that I do is give here, they expect that of me, they expect that I don’t have boundaries. This happens with parents a lot. I expect my parents expect, expect that I’ll just answer the phone for them all the time, or they expect they can just butt into my life or like make decisions for me, or blah, blah, blah, blah. And so setting boundaries and changing the nature of a relationship when you’ve historically been a pleaser or a giver in that relationship can be extremely challenging because you’re breaking this unspoken contract that you have with them and people will get upset about that typically.
0:35:04 – Speaker 1
You just said the word unspoken contract. Can you expand a little bit more on that, for sure? Yeah, I’m just going to pull that a little bit because people don’t realize there’s a lot of unspoken contracts or unspoken agreements.
0:35:17 – Speaker 2
that, oh my god, yeah, I mean, we make these little deals with people that when we are in relationship with them, it’s like, okay, I’m always going to act this way and you’re always going to act this way, and this is how we relate to each other and we form these habits and patterns in relationship where, you know, with some people you show up one way and they show up that way, and then with another person, you show up this way and then they show up in their specific way, and so with each person we build over time these little grooves and patterns of our relationship dynamic and we expect that they’re going to keep acting the way they’re acting and I’m going to keep acting the way that I’m acting, forever and always going to have the same relationship.
0:36:05 – Speaker 1
What does that do to relationship?
0:36:07 – Speaker 2
Oh my god, what it does, what it does eventually to well. I’ll say this because some relationships can withstand that. Yeah, in some relationships that works, and in other relationships, typically like people change, people grow, their life circumstances change, who they are, what they want changes, and so when that happens, it changes the dynamic of the relationship and so the relationship requires a renegotiation. Okay, now that I’m this way, how are you here? And I’ll give an example of this.
Like this happened in a friendship of mine Last year, a couple years ago, where I got at the end of one of my romantic relationships. My friend was also getting out of one of her romantic relationships and so we really deeply bonded over this experience. We both just ended these traumatic relationships and we’re like, oh my gosh, we have each other and it was amazing, but we can’t be became very codependent. We were with each other all the time, hanging out all day, just constantly with each other, supporting each other. For all of a summer we were in this crew and then we both got boyfriends almost at the same time and it changed the nature of our relationship and I, both of us.
There was a lot of tension that was going on and I felt like, oh my gosh, you’re spending so much time with your boyfriend, you don’t care about me anymore. Like all of that wounding came up and she was like You’re being too needy, why do you always want to hang out with me? Still, blah, blah, blah. And all of that happened because we had this unspoken agreement that we were going to be best friends. That hung out every day forever, and then when that changed, it was hurtful for both of us in a different way, and so that is. It’s hard on a relationship to navigate that challenge, but I don’t trust any relationship that hasn’t been to the brink of annihilation.
And if it survives that shift and that change and both parties can adapt and become who they are and then meet each other in a new place.
0:38:16 – Speaker 1
That is real intimacy, in my opinion, totally, and I feel like it also keeps the relationship like really alive in like different ways. It sparks up newness and especially for, like you know, people in relationship will start with a new partnership, like, oh, this is so exciting and like I’m so in love, and it’s like, oh, my gosh, every number, amount, everything is just like going off the walls and you’re like I so want to be around this person. But I really think, like encouraging the change, encouraging us to evolve and adapt, actually can also keep us very much alive in the relationship. It’s, like you know, really leaning into those harder conversations about like hey, this is how I showed up, but I really want to show up like this now, or like this is really inviting to me. I want to lean into this space for, or I want to, I want to do this more, like I’m encouraging that and you know, I think, yes, like you said, some relationships really thrive in a more what’s the right word, I don’t want to say stagnant, but, like you know, very much more consistent relationship and and that’s that’s there for them too, and I’m never going to say that that’s wrong.
But I’m also saying, like the the encouragement of our own evolution also allows a relationship to evolve and its own evolution and can take us to deeper parts of us, can take us into further parts of ourselves and to feel more expressed because of that encouragement. But it’s it’s almost like you need an awareness of like that’s happening, because then, also to what you were talking about, was very much of like. We were in this and there was this, this contract that we ever spoke about, which is the way that we are being, and then all these things were like getting tied together and it was like so much harder to break that versus walking into relationship of like. No, like this is we’re going to evolve, we’re going to change and I’m here for that.
0:39:57 – Speaker 2
Yeah, for sure there’s a. When you were speaking, there’s this image that came to mind, a model that a couple of my teachers, andy and Libby, share, which is the infinity loop in relationship that goes from you start at stability and then the stability turns eventually into stagnation, and then for the relationship to continue on the spectrum it needs expansion, but then eventually that expansion devolves into chaos, and so then you need stability, and then eventually the stability turns into stagnation and then it requires some expansion, and then that turns into chaos, and then you keep looping on this infinity spectrum and the relationship can keep evolving in that way. You, like you said you’d have to be aware and you have to be attuned to. Okay, this is getting a little too chaotic, like, let’s rein it in and create some stability, or, oh, we’re getting a little stagnant here. Let’s do something that causes expansion for us.
0:40:52 – Speaker 1
So good. I love that I’m gonna. I love that you shared that. That makes so much sense as I reflect back on like my own personal relationship and seeing other people go through that like pattern that you shared.
0:41:05 – Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it helps to have that framework in mind, because you can pinpoint where you are at any given moment in time, like you can say okay, right now we’re in a stable phase, let’s ride this out and just be aware of when it turns into stagnation, and when it does, let’s look for a way to expand in that Totally so good.
Oh, we’re in an expansive phase right now. We’re traveling a lot, we’re doing a lot of things, we’re trying new things, we’re becoming something new. Let’s just keep an eye out for if it becomes a little too chaotic so we can create some stability here.
0:41:37 – Speaker 1
Totally. I can almost say like too, like you can listen. Going back to like your boundaries, your capacity to be in any of those stages, because that’s how you’ll know, and to like I guess, like switch into the next stage. Or like bring it up into like okay, we need to start trans transmuting into the next one. I’m a little overwhelmed. We’re like yeah, I’m getting too overexpanded. Or like this is too chaotic. Or like hey, this, I want to spark things up.
So I love that that’s so good yeah yeah, the one thing I really want to ask you before we even wrap up here. I can’t believe it’s already gone so fast, because I could.
0:42:08 – Speaker 2
I could.
0:42:10 – Speaker 1
I could talk to you forever, which is amazing, but like after your full journey of like, just like finding your sexuality really working through, like the people pleasing tendencies or the performing tendencies, like what has been your guide or like your invitation to being expressed through your sexuality, through your relationship, through life, through business, like what has been your, almost like your anchor, to keep leaning into that expression of yourself, that evolution of yourself.
0:42:43 – Speaker 2
I think I just love change, like I have a very curious part I have, and like this north star inside of me that just wants to experience everything. And it’s so curious and it’s so compelled towards change without really a need. It used to be that change needed to accomplish something, like I needed to set a goal and become something. Yes, yes, but the older I get, the more that it’s become, it’s become more artistic. It’s like, well, I just want to do it, to create. I just want to see what I can do. I just want to see what this might feel like, or what this experience would be like. And what if I, what if I wore this hat for a day? And that that’s my anchor is like I can’t imagine leaving this existence without having tried as much as possible to do anything that felt interesting to me have you always felt that way, like, about, like I mean I get like the, the former, changing, setting goals, growing growth, but like.
0:43:50 – Speaker 1
Has it always been there from a place of curiosity, or did that kind of start to create differently later? Like what? How would you describe it before? To like now, or has it always been consistent?
0:44:03 – Speaker 2
I think what really instilled it in me was both my parents were teachers. My mom was a first grade teacher and a third grade teacher, my dad taught special ed and so they really instilled this value of education and growth from a really early age. And so I think, even looking at like how I felt in high school and this I grew up in a very, very small town and how I felt different from everyone and wanted to leave and wanted to go explore like I think it is a direct result of my parents always being in favor of me trying new things, and you know there have been points where they’ve really questioned my judgment about things, which I think is healthy and natural, but they’ve always encouraged me to to do whatever I want yeah, that’s so great.
0:45:00 – Speaker 1
And the last thing I’m going to pull one last thread is like how has changed? Or like leaning into this change, leaning into evolution, allowing yourself to change benefited you? Or like what has it gifted you? Would have you received from that desire?
0:45:15 – Speaker 2
I have received a deep trust in myself, definitely like that’s a huge benefit that I’ve received, just like knowing that, no matter what I do or who I change into, like I’m still here with me but we can’t fail, like there’s no failure here, we can do anything.
Like there’s such an unshakable belief that, like, no matter what happens, I can turn out fine because I’m gonna have my. And the other thing that I’ve received from that is the ability to really hold people through whatever phase they’re in, like I kind of watching people grow and encouraging them to change and hopefully that naturally comes up in that process right and uncertainty that they’re feeling when they’re like, is this the right move? Should I divorce my partner? Like what’s gonna happen to me? Should I take this job? Like should I quit my job? Like should I try the thing that I’ve never done before? And from having gone through so many changes and every single time it’s always fine I can be there with them through that and say I totally get it. I get what you’re feeling and I promise you with full confidence you’re gonna be totally okay.
0:46:27 – Speaker 1
I love how you just like shared that your anchor has been such a gift for you, but it’s also been the gift that you get to share with others too yeah so beautiful yeah well.
Thank you so, so much for coming on to the fully expressed podcast with Corena that’s with me. It was such a pleasure to have you and such a gift and honestly, I feel so connected to you on this call like this right now I’m like I wish we could stay on forever. I have like the goosebumps, I have emotions in my eyes, I’m just like this is so good and so yummy and so thank you so much for taking the time to to be here with us today.
0:47:01 – Speaker 2
Thank, you for asking really good questions and, yeah, being so attuned to me and giving me this space to share, and sharing with me, yeah, thanks.
